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In General => Modified Cars => Topic started by: Leepu Awlia on February 27, 2005, 01:03:30 PM

Title: Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on February 27, 2005, 01:03:30 PM
picked this up from another website. not sure how many people know how to tune their suspension, but I hope this is helpful




With toe-in (left) a deflection of the suspension does not cause the wheels to initiate a turn as with toe-out (right).



Caster



(TOP LEFT) Positive camber: The bottoms of the wheels are closer together than the tops. (TOP RIGHT) Negative camber: The tops of the wheels are closer together than the bottoms. (CENTER) When a suspension does not gain camber during deflection, this causes a severe positive camber condition when the car leans during cornering. This can cause funky handling. (BOTTOM) Fight the funk: A suspension that gains camber during deflection will compensate for body roll. Tuning dynamic camber angles is one of the black arts of suspension tuning.

Front spring rate increase:
More under steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; reduces front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: terminal under steer; front of car hops in corners; excessive wheel spin on inside front tire on FF cars.

Front spring rate decrease:
Less under steer; decreases proportional weight transfer to the front when rear wheel rate is not increased; increases front traction when rear rate is not changed.
Usable adjustment: 150-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of to much adjustment: Too much over steer; over steer then under steer if spring is so soft that the car bottoms out on lean, car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Rear spring rate increase:
More over steer; increase in proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not increased; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed.
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: too much over steer; sidestep hop in corners; twitchy; pretty scary.

Rear spring rate decrease:
Less over steer: decreases proportional weight transfer to the rear when front wheel rate is not changed; increases rear traction when front rate is not changed
Usable range: 100-600 lbs/in
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car under steers; if way to soft car under steers then over steers as car bottoms out on lean; car bottoms out excessively with a jolting ride.

Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on February 27, 2005, 01:09:25 PM
Front anti-roll bar stiffer: more under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: terminal under steer; lifts inside front tire off the ground witch can cause massive wheel spin on FF cars; also not good for most effective tire usage as inside tire is now doing nothing.

Front anti-roll bar softer: less under steer
Usable range: none to 1.25 inches in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: overstate scary; more like fun

Rear anti-roll bar stiffer: more over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Big-time over steer. Can cause inside rear tire to lift off the ground.

Rear anti-roll bar softer: less over steer
Usable range: none to 1 inch in diameter
Symptoms of to much adjustment: under steer; slow and boring

Front tire pressure higher: less under steer by reducing slip angels on most tires
Usable adjustment: up to 55psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction- tire crowned so more under steer; adds wheel spin in FF cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out

Front tire pressure lower: more under steer by increasing slip angles on most tires
Usable adjustment: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up.

Rear tire pressure higher: less over steer by reducing slip angles on most tires
Usable range: up to 45psi hot
Symptoms of too much adjustment: no traction—tire is crowned so more over steer; bad wheel spin on FR cars; jarring ride; center of tire wears out.

Rear tire pressure lower: more over steer by incresing slip angles on most tires.
Usable range: not less then 20psi
Symptoms of too much adjustment: edges of tire wear quickly because tire is folding over; feels mushy; tires chunk because low pressure means heat build up

More negative camber front: less under steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load.
Usable range: up to 3.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: poor braking; car is road crown sensitive; twitchy; front tires wear on inside edge

More negative camber rear: less over steer because of better lateral traction as tread is flatter on the ground under side load. More rear grip
Usable range: up to 2.5 degrees negative
Symptoms of too much adjustment: more over steer; car feels twitchy in back; tires wear out on inside edge; less breakaway warning when limit is exceeded.

Ride height to low (typical beginner mistake): car is twitchy with unpredictable dynamics. Bump steer make you life miserable.
Usable range: usually 1.5-2.0 inches lower then stock unless car has been modified to go lower.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: everything that could possibly go wrong: sudden over/under steer; twitchy due to bump steer; very harsh ride; premature tire wear.

Toe in – front: car is stable going straight. Turn in is average
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car has slow twitchiness under braking; feels odd; kills outside edge of tires

Toe out – front: Car turns in well; works pretty well on FF car as they tend to toe-in under load.
Usable range: 0-1/4 inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: Car is really twitchy under braking; car wanders on straight road; kills inside edge of tire

Toe in – rear: car is less likely to over steer when the throttle is lifted
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: weird, slow, rocking movement in back; feels slow but still unstable; wears outside edge of tires.

Toe out – rear: Helps car rotate useful in low speed and slalom courses; very common on FF pro rally cars.
Usable range: 0-1/8th inch
Symptoms of too much adjustment: not to good for street driving; causes lift throttle over steer; makes violent side to side rocking motions in the rear; tie wears on inside more.

Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on February 27, 2005, 01:10:12 PM
Positive front caster: helps stability; suspension will get more negative camber when turning; reducing positive caster reduces steering effort. (Negative caster is not usable)
Usable range: 4-9 degrees positive
Symptoms of too much adjustment: can increase under steer especially in cars with wide low-profile tires. Can increase steering effort.

Single adjustable shock stiffer: Better turn in; better transient response; causes slower onset of over/under steer by slowing weight transfer depending on what end of the car is adjusted.
Symptoms of too much adjustment: suspension becomes unresponsive; ride gets harsh; car skips over bumps, loosing traction; Causes a big delay in weight transfer resulting in strange handling like under steer then late corner stage over steer.

Single adjustable shock softer: slower transient response; quicker onset of over/under steer
Symptoms of too much adjustment: car oscillates due to under dampened spring motion, like a boat. Car gets twitchy in turns. Feels unstable.

Spring Rate Changes (def. important for those who dont pay att. to this)
Modification - Effect on Suspension

Increase front and rear rate - Ride harshness increases; tires may not follow bumps causing reduced traction. Roll resistance increases.

Increase front rate only - Front ride rate increases. Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or reducing oversteer.

Increase rear rate only - Rear ride rate increases. Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or reducing understeer.

Decrease front and rear rate - Ride harshness decreases; tires follow bumps more effectively, possibly improving traction. Roll resistance decreases.

Decrease front rate only - Front ride rate decreases. Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer.

Decrease rear rate only - Rear ride rate decreases. Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer.


Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on February 27, 2005, 01:11:14 PM
Antiroll Bar Changes (aka sway bar)
Modification - Effect on Suspension

Increase front rate - Front roll resistance increases, increasing understeer or decreasing oversteer. May also reduce camber change, allowing better tire contact patch compliance with the road surface, reducing understeer.

Increase rear rate - Rear roll resistance increases, increasing oversteer or decreasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, may also reduce camber change, allowing better contact patch compliance with road surface, reducing oversteer.

Decrease front rate - Front roll resistance decreases, decreasing understeer or increasing oversteer. More body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing understeer.

Decrease rear rate - Rear roll resistance decreases, decreasing oversteer or increasing understeer. On independent rear suspensions, more body roll could reduce tire contact patch area, causing oversteer.



Shock Absorber Changes (aka your struts)
Modification - Effect on Suspension

Increase rebound and bump rates - Ride harshness increases.

Increase rebound rates only - On bumps, tires may leave track surface.

Increase bump rates only - Body roll resisted; outside tire loaded too quickly; car won't stabilize into a turn.

Decrease rebound and bump rates - Ride harshness decreases; car may float over bumps.

Decrease rebound rates only - On bumps, tires follow track surface more effectively; car may continue to oscillate after bumps.

Decrease bump rates only - Body rolls quickly; car is slower to respond to turn-in.



Troubleshooting Tire Temperatures
Reading - Handling problem - Reason

All tires too hot - * - Compound too soft for track and ambient temperature conditions.

Front tires too hot - Understeer - Front tire pressures too low.

Rear tires too hot - Oversteer - Rear tire pressures too low.

Inside edges too hot - Too much body roll - Too much negative camber or too much toe-out.

Outside edges too hot Too - much body roll - Too little negative camber, too little toe-out or too much toe-in or wheel width too narrow for tire width.

Center of tread too hot - * -Tire pressure too high.

Edges on too hot - * -Tire pressure too low.

All tires too cold - * - Compound too hard for track and ambient temperature conditions or car not being driven to limit.

Front tires too cold - * - Inadequate load on front tires.

Rear tires too cold - * - Inadequate load on rear tires



Solving Handling Problems
Problem - Manifestation *Solutions

Steady state understeer - All turns or low-speed turns only
*If front tire temps are optimum and rears are low, stiffen rear antiroll bar; *if front temps are too hot, soften front (most likely).
*If front tire pressures are optimum, decrease rear tire pressure.
*Increase if chunking occurs.
*Improper front camber.
*Too much body roll at front, causing excessive camber change.

Steady state understeer - High-speed turns only
*If front tire temps are OK, increase front downforce.
*If front tire temps are too hot, reduce rear downforce.

Steady state oversteer - All turns or low-speed turns only
*If rear tire temps are optimum, with fronts too low, stiffen front antiroll bar;
*if rear temps are too hot, soften rear antiroll bar (most likely).
*If rear tire pressures are optimum, decrease front tire pressure. *Increase if chunking occurs.
*Improper rear camber.

Steady state oversteer - High-speed turns only
*If rear tire temps are OK, increase rear downforce.
*If rear tire temps are too hot, reduce front downforce.

Corner entry understeer
*Front shocks are too soft in bump resistance.
*Too much front toe-in; use a small amount of front toe-out.

Corner exit understeer
*Rear shocks are too soft in bump.
*Front shocks are too stiff in rebound.

Corner entry oversteer
*Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.
*Rear ride height is too high (too much rake) compared to front.

Corner exit oversteer
*Rear shocks are too soft in rebound.
*Too much rear toe-in or any rear toe-out.

Straightline instability
*Tire pressure is too low in one or more tires.
*Too little positive front caster.
*Too much front toe-in or any toe-out in rear.

Straightline speed too slow
*Too much overall downforce.
*Too much toe-in or toe-out.
*Ride height is too hight.

Excessive steering effort - All turns
*Too much positive caster.
*Front tire pressures are too low.

Chassis or suspension bottoms
*Spring rates are too soft.
*Shock absorber bump rates are too soft.
*Inadequate suspension travel.
*Inadequate ride height.
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: DTNS on February 27, 2005, 05:22:52 PM
very informative! :)  this thread should be made sticky. ;)
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Protege Mania on February 27, 2005, 06:28:55 PM
This should help a lot when I play NFS or GT. hehehe :)

Do all these, in general, apply to FWD and AWD cars too?
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: R-A-Y on February 28, 2005, 12:14:18 AM
Stickied thread for the great topic :D
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: speedyfix on February 28, 2005, 10:16:05 AM
two thumbs up for a good thread! ;D
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: FlyLO on March 06, 2005, 06:07:48 PM
Props! nice thread
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Ernest on May 28, 2005, 12:52:38 AM
I wonder if toe settings in the front affects turn in by changing the ackerman angles?  Since cornering eventually shifts weight to the outside tires causing them to bear majority of the traction load, the inner wheels would have less of an impact in handling / cornering mid-way through the corner or when the car has settled down into the turn.  Hence, toe settings at the front will only have an impact to the initial turn in.

The rear toe angles are simpler to work out in theory.

Nice post!
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on May 28, 2005, 05:08:12 AM
Quote from: Ernest on May 28, 2005, 12:52:38 AM
I wonder if toe settings in the front affects turn in by changing the ackerman angles?  Since cornering eventually shifts weight to the outside tires causing them to bear majority of the traction load, the inner wheels would have less of an impact in handling / cornering mid-way through the corner or when the car has settled down into the turn.  Hence, toe settings at the front will only have an impact to the initial turn in.

The rear toe angles are simpler to work out in theory.

Nice post!

toe out improves ackerman but it has negative consequences such as being darty in the straightaways. if you have rack and pinion and you want more ackerman, you can improve it by moving your rack backward or forward (it depends on where your rack is located in relation to the pivot arms.
ackerman is nice if the rest of the parameters are where they sould be (kinpin inclination, roll center, etc) but if you shoot for ackerman and the rest are bad, its not worth it.

in the rear, im more worried about bumpsteer than ackerman, unless you have rear wheel steer too. some irs systems toe in during compression to induce understeer for safety reasons.
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Ernest on May 28, 2005, 04:03:17 PM
Yes I agree, but does it accelerate turn-in due to increased ackerman angles on the inside front wheel?  Afterall you will have a larger amount of steering in the inside wheel with toe out at the front than the outside wheel.
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Leepu Awlia on May 28, 2005, 09:59:36 PM
Quote from: Ernest on May 28, 2005, 04:03:17 PM
Yes I agree, but does it accelerate turn-in due to increased ackerman angles on the inside front wheel?  Afterall you will have a larger amount of steering in the inside wheel with toe out at the front than the outside wheel.

yes, faster turn in. generally, the stickier the tires, the more ackerman you can dial in. purpose built racecars are close to 100% ackerman while street cars are at 6-30.
another good effect of ackerman is weightjacking. the inside wheel is pushed down by the geometry.
another negative effect is scrubbing the
again, in the grand scheme of things, i rank ackerman on the bottom.... :)
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Ernest on May 28, 2005, 10:53:39 PM
I would rank ackerman at the bottom too.  Thanks for the clarification.  It's nnice to understand the effects as well as the cause of the effect.  ;)
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: z_luis on June 29, 2005, 11:17:05 AM
very informative  ;D
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Jimmy on August 15, 2005, 09:13:27 PM
Anyone here got info on the effects of Track widening?  Positive/Negative results when adding front or rear width on 4WD-RWD-FWD. When is too much or too little?
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on August 16, 2005, 11:36:20 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on August 15, 2005, 09:13:27 PM
Anyone here got info on the effects of Track widening?  Positive/Negative results when adding front or rear width on 4WD-RWD-FWD. When is too much or too little?


I'll assume you're asking this for autocross and/or circuit, otherwise why would you be widening the track for?
1.  if you widen your track, you cannot lower your car as much as the tires will rub.   its better to lower the car more than widen the track.  A lower center of gravity is better than a wider track.
2.  wider track will increase turning radius and vice-versa
3.  wider track will increase stabilty in high speeds
4.  wider track will increase drag
5.  so long as car is balanced, wider track can increase cornering speed limits
6.  Too much and you stress the wheel bearings till they overheat and you get wierd noises.  Too little and your tires/wheels rub on the inside
7.  widen the front track only reduces understeer.  widening rears reduces oversteer.
8.   RWD like wider tracks in the rear.  FWD like wider tracks in the front. AWD like wider tracks front & back.

My suggestion?  Do not widen your track unless you want to run tall or are willing to flare out your fenders so you can lower your car.
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: badboysupra on August 18, 2005, 03:25:39 PM
kool, very informative. but, also some suspension set-ups would differ from other cars. most FWD cars would tend to understeer and other RWD cars would tend to oversteer. right? well, in some cases it can go vise versa. even some AWD cars can suffer from heavy understeer and some would just like to grip or drift. for example, talking about oversteering on a EVO 8 RS while the Impreza STI would in some corners would understeer. really bad.
In my own 2 cents, setting up a very good suspension system really depends on what type of driving or racing you are in. it does take alot of time to set-up a really good suspension for drifting, drag or even auto crossing. well, I know some people out there that doesnt really understand much would consider a car with basic suspension mods like lowering springs, HP shocks or a set of full coil overs would do the trick, well if the car is only a daily driver then its OK. but if your goin out racing then dialing in the suspension is very crucial. it just takes alot of time,adjusting & testing. yeh, its just my opinion since that dialing in a suspension for my supra for drifting is such a bitch (my drag set up is OK and easy). but then again, its all about the driver though (wich is me) who can really adapt to it. aite, cheers! -KBR
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on November 02, 2005, 12:26:29 AM
ASCALRacing:

I'm thinking of getting that "J's Racing Roll Center Adjuster" for my Type R.  It's basically a longer front lower ball joint that repositions the lower control arm so that the front roll center is raised back closer to stock when the car is lowered more than 2-inches from stock.

Almost all the pro racers lower their race cars a lot but are not allowed to make this modification (RWYB has no restriction).  They compensate by putting in really hard springs and bigger sway bars but is it true that ultra-lowering will degrade handling as the ROLL MOMENT increases, that is the distance between the front CG and front ROLL CENTER increases?

Have you or anyone you know made this modifcation and proved it effective?
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: JpT on May 02, 2006, 12:39:58 PM
i have a question. i recently bought a pair of rear shocks sa likod ng car ko, hoping mawala un squeaking sound.. although its minimal naman...  but i changed it na and andun pa rin un sound..

what MIGHT be the prob kaya? :(
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: doogie14 on May 02, 2006, 06:25:53 PM
hi guys,
experiencing same squeeks on my mom's mazda 323 sedan, just replaced the 2 rear shocks last month, the squeeks were gone a while but has returned this past week.....

thanks

doogs  8)
Title: Re:Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on May 02, 2006, 06:42:15 PM
Quote from: doogie14 on May 02, 2006, 06:25:53 PM
hi guys,
experiencing same squeeks on my mom's mazda 323 sedan, just replaced the 2 rear shocks last month, the squeeks were gone a while but has returned this past week.....

thanks

doogs  8)

Try to identify when and where the squeeks come out.  Sounds to me like worn bushings.  Try bringing it to an alignment shop and having them check out all your undercarriage for worn parts
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: zidack on July 29, 2006, 01:25:53 AM
this is a nice tread. awesome!!!

i have a question. how to lower a old skul car ( 1982 macho jap version).

what is the best set up lowering springs or lowering block?

is this possible with my project car?
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Ernest on July 31, 2006, 03:04:29 PM
With leaf springs I think the only option would be a lowering block.  I am not sure if there are coilover upgrades for your specific car model.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on August 16, 2006, 11:42:55 AM
hahaha  LOL!  ;D  Dude, with all due respect, you should know that the author posted this for the circuit drivers.  Having your wheel alignment for the street is different from having it aligned for the track.  Street -> tire wear.  Track -> grip.

Like for track, you need toe-out so it will turn-in better.  But toe-out makes your car wander in the street.  In the track, you need negative camper for more grip but for the street, it will cause uneven wear.

Alignment shops charge at least P1,000 or more depending on whether you do 2 wheel or 4 wheel alignment, camber, etc.

Racing mechanics will align your race car, all 4 wheels including camber, several times a day in practice or sessions and only charge about that much for the whole day's job!  :)

Pero OK naman yung Servitek for the average driver.  You should have our car checked every 6 months there  ;)

Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on August 16, 2006, 01:58:26 PM
Quote from: hansonchua on August 16, 2006, 12:45:38 PM
hahahaha. thanks dude... actually, my circuit race aligner costs 250 an hour.hehehehe that sucks!

You race also?  What do you mean "circuit race aligner"?  It this a person or a tool or both?  He only aligns it at the track?

Anyway, before I used to go to Servitek near my office in Quezon Ave.  Then to my friends place at the Fort, Bridgestone.  But I'm amazed how the race mechanics can align you car so quickly at the track just using string and simple tools.  Or you can have that magnetic tool that attaches to your wheel hub and can read camber, etc.

At the track, we align by lap times, tire temperature and tire pressure.  We choose the best alignment setting so lap times improve, tire temperature is even across each tire and tire pressure is even on all 4 tires.  It's amazing how a few degrees can improve your car's handling.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Operator on August 19, 2006, 10:22:02 AM
Quote from: hansonchua on August 18, 2006, 07:02:06 PM
about racing... well, i used to race.... more than 3 years ago.hehehehe i kinda stopped when i lost control once and went into a total wreack situation... pardon the spelling... not an english major here.hehehehe

I think you're confusing REAL circuit racing with street racing...
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Conan® on August 21, 2006, 12:53:32 PM
Quote from: hansonchua on August 21, 2006, 10:12:07 AM
doubt it... my group used to go to BRC to race.... those were the days... i used to drag din... mga 5 years ago.... and there is also the street circuit racing.... un ung part na mahirap tanchahin ung alignment kasi you can not have a got at it anytime you want naman... u just set the track on the time that you will be racing...

we also do a lot of drifting here in laoag.hehehe

What cars are you using for drifting?
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: speedyfix on August 22, 2006, 08:55:34 AM
drifting with fwd? ubus siguro handbrake mo.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: speedyfix on August 23, 2006, 11:26:37 PM
wow, you can drift it with just the brakes? you must be a good driver!
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Operator on August 24, 2006, 08:21:31 AM
Quote from: hansonchua on August 23, 2006, 11:48:02 PM
thanks for the comp... ure such a great guy.hehehehe anyway, syempre may konting gas din and clutch dba?hehehehe pero mainly brakes... it took me more than a year to do it... d lang nga kaya yung mga full drifts... puro semi lang... pudpod nga ung handbrakes pag may mga full drifts...hehehehe

In case you couldn't tell, speedyfix was being sarcastic  ::)  :P
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Operator on August 25, 2006, 02:37:26 PM
Quote from: hansonchua on August 25, 2006, 10:58:15 AM
in case u couldnt tell, i was being sarcastic too. duh! the brain bro.... use it before it dries out.

May I direct you to this thread:

http://www.autoindustriya.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=22377.15

Now who among us isn't using his brain? Search for your posts, I'm sure you'll find all sorts of stupid, nonsensical, and unrelated comments all over the boards. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one getting annoyed by your post whoring.

Anyway, I'll rest my case here, lest I give you more chance to rack up your post count   :P
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: wendell on August 25, 2006, 04:03:56 PM
I am not familiar with these stuff, so may i ask: is the front wheel drive drifting thing with them mr.hansonchua using that handbrake of his is somehow a handbrake that seems to behave like a manual linelock or some brake lock?
---

btw i have read something about the physics of these oversteer and understeer things:

http://www.dur.ac.uk/r.g.bower/PoM/pom/node28.html

it is a good read.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: speedyfix on August 25, 2006, 10:24:58 PM
let's try to be civil even if we're actually being sarcastic.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: caohyde on September 13, 2006, 09:03:41 PM
just a question. would a combination of soft (as in stock feel) shocks and stiffer (non-adjustable gas) shocks be somewhat of a good compromise for a "street fighter" car? simply, getting coilovers with soft (6-8 kg/mm) spring rates is kinda difficult albeit expensive to obtain.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on September 14, 2006, 09:11:40 AM
Quote from: caohyde on September 13, 2006, 09:03:41 PM
just a question. would a combination of soft (as in stock feel) shocks and stiffer (non-adjustable gas) shocks be somewhat of a good compromise for a "street fighter" car? simply, getting coilovers with soft (6-8 kg/mm) spring rates is kinda difficult albeit expensive to obtain.

Did you mean soft springs and stiff shocks,  cuz you wouldn't want to mix and match shocks! 

Yes, street cars or even Togue fighters ala Mt. Akina kind-a-thing favors "sport" suspension which is what you are suggesting.  When you tune your suspension, you always have to consider the surface and road conditions you will be racing in.  Public roads are bumpy and at times, slippery, with oil and/or water.  Soft springs will provide more grip and stiff shocks will provide control.  You cannot overly lower too cuz you need maximum suspension travel.  I'd say 1-1.5 inch lowering is good na for Manila roads.  (for circuit you need 2-3 inches!).  Let me add that upgrading to larger diameter sway bars is also an excellent way to lessen the lean of your car.

Btw, 6-8 kgs springs are not that stiff pa.  My Accord uses it and I find them too soft for serious track work.  But they are actually ideal for the "street fighter" set-up.  Well, for other cars, especially those with strut suspension, using 6-8 springs for the street may be too stiff as the effective tire spring rate may be higher due to the suspension geomery. 

Generally speaking, sport suspension for hot-street is 8kg and below while circuit requires at least 10kg and above.  Type R uses @4 kgs and they are the best street suspension set-up for the street in my opinion although the ride is not exactly cushy due to the stiff shocks.

Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: caohyde on September 14, 2006, 09:15:23 PM
Quote from: Accord GTR on September 14, 2006, 09:11:40 AM
Generally speaking, sport suspension for hot-street is 8kg and below while circuit requires at least 10kg and above.  Type R uses @4 kgs and they are the best street suspension set-up for the street in my opinion although the ride is not exactly cushy due to the stiff shocks.

thanks nico for the reply, i appreciate it.

yeah, soft springs and stiff shocks. it's basically the same (roughly) as the type r setup. though right now my springs are the 2" drop kind. maybe this will do 'til i get my hands on some coil overs.

btw, would you know if there are aftermarket/replacement (kyb, tokico) shocks for hondas that have the same characteristics as the ones for the type r?

thanks a bunch!
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on September 15, 2006, 09:31:48 AM
Quote from: caohyde on September 14, 2006, 09:15:23 PM
thanks nico for the reply, i appreciate it.

yeah, soft springs and stiff shocks. it's basically the same (roughly) as the type r setup. though right now my springs are the 2" drop kind. maybe this will do 'til i get my hands on some coil overs.

btw, would you know if there are aftermarket/replacement (kyb, tokico) shocks for hondas that have the same characteristics as the ones for the type r?

thanks a bunch!

I have KYB gas in my Lxi stock suspension with "putol" springs when I'm not using coilovers.  They are so nice actually for the car and I've run 2:02.5 with them in BRC in my race car which is an amazing 2.5 seconds slower than my full race suspension!  But the ride and cost is so so much better.

Type R uses Showa gas.  Nothing like the KYB or even Konis or Bilsteins, which I've tried also.  So much stiffer.  They will actually bolt-in to any Civic EK.  But the ride sucks for everyday use, but mine is quite worn already so I'm not sure if brand new shocks will have a similar ride to KYB but I doubt it.  It's in the valving...Type R Showa's ride shitty if you drive them slow, but drive them fast above 80kph and you feel in total control, quite opposite to ordinary oem or sport shocks.

Shock performance deteriorates with time.  Usually, KYB's and oem shocks last only 4-5 years on regular use while Koni, Bilstein last longer.  The more you race, the faster they will wear out.  Also they can get damaged going thru potholes and humps at high speed.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: caohyde on September 15, 2006, 01:08:51 PM
thanks again for the reply, appreciate your inputs. :)

hmm... kyb's are fine then. probably the compromise that i've been looking for. are these the excel g one's or somewhere along those lines? showa gas for the type r's? are they available here as well?

thanks again!

Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Accord GTR on September 15, 2006, 05:16:13 PM
Quote from: caohyde on September 15, 2006, 01:08:51 PM
thanks again for the reply, appreciate your inputs. :)

hmm... kyb's are fine then. probably the compromise that i've been looking for. are these the excel g one's or somewhere along those lines? showa gas for the type r's? are they available here as well?

thanks again!



Yah, I forget what the KYB's said but sounded something like that.  Just ask the dealer and make sure it's their sporty model.  All Type R stuff here is surplus.  You'll have to order it form Japan if you want brand new
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: bRri_GD3 on September 17, 2006, 02:27:54 PM
any one can post some links about

how strut bars works?like  front upper,rear upper,lower arm,etc.

can find anything searching the net....there is, but lacks of inforamtion

thanx
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: GD3 on September 17, 2006, 03:07:19 PM
Quote from: bRri_GD3 on September 17, 2006, 02:27:54 PM
any one can post some links about

how strut bars works?like  front upper,rear upper,lower arm,etc.

can find anything searching the net....there is, but lacks of inforamtion

thanx

basically, it's just a bar that stiffens the chassis... Imagine you were holding a steel bar then then raise one of its sides while keeping the other at a fixed point.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: Mikey23 on September 24, 2006, 07:06:58 PM
Quote from: caohyde on September 15, 2006, 01:08:51 PM
thanks again for the reply, appreciate your inputs. :)

hmm... kyb's are fine then. probably the compromise that i've been looking for. are these the excel g one's or somewhere along those lines? showa gas for the type r's? are they available here as well?

thanks again!



Bro excel G with lowering springs will actually last about 6months... :'( I have 4 new excel Gs and sparco lowering springs 2" with a rate of 3 and it only last after 2 RWYBs & 1 Trackday in Subic after that its soft na,       ( though I keep on tavelling the highways of North Luzon and to and from Baguio to Manila)  i guess the shocks from accord GTRs Lxi is a high end KYBs.. try asking feedback re: tokico if it lasts with lowering springs. ;)
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: mr.blacktop on October 03, 2006, 09:19:28 PM
Quote from: caohyde on September 15, 2006, 01:08:51 PM
thanks again for the reply, appreciate your inputs. :)

hmm... kyb's are fine then. probably the compromise that i've been looking for. are these the excel g one's or somewhere along those lines? showa gas for the type r's? are they available here as well?

thanks again!

bro if u want kyb gas shocks go for the "kayaba sr" dats the gold 1, before i switch to coilovers i used dat for my stock struts, by d way i used the "insert type" im not sure if dey made it for ur ek, il try to check it from the supplier


Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: stranger on December 01, 2006, 09:33:16 PM
ok lang ba na likod lang ang babaan?just to have a bit of sporty look,mga 1in lang or so.car is a 98 corona.tnx
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: nikko_m on March 18, 2007, 02:49:52 PM
Quote from: stranger on December 01, 2006, 09:33:16 PM
ok lang ba na likod lang ang babaan?just to have a bit of sporty look,mga 1in lang or so.car is a 98 corona.tnx

sir,
why would you want to lower your rear's lang?kung may sakay ka sa likod baka mas mataas ang front end ng car mo.better cguro kung pantay ang pag ka lower ng car.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: badtoy on December 11, 2007, 02:28:44 PM
nice read...

just a question. If the car doesnt have a swaybar equipped in the front, can a lower arm bar for the crossmember compensate?
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: rkdf on March 17, 2008, 12:49:22 PM
good day everyone.

about tire pressure lang po.

nabasa ko sa first page lowering front tire presure increases "understeer" and lowering rear tire presure increases "oversteer"?
question ko lang po,
di po ba when we lower the tire pressure, the tire gets softer, therefore increasing the contact patch of the tire in the road, hence more grip. so di po ba lowering the tire pressure in the front decreases  "understeer" and lowering rear tire pressure decreases "oversteer".

enlightenment would be appreciated. :)
thankyou. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: tougeattacksid on December 12, 2008, 04:48:17 PM
Yeah. I personally, (on my S13 back in the States), like to run 25-28PSI in the front tires and 32-35PSI in the rear , whenever i drift, so it would have a nice tossable feel to it. I used this even before i got my TEIN Super Drift coilovers.

Tires are EVERYTHING when it comes to handling.

Quote from: badtoy on December 11, 2007, 02:28:44 PM
nice read...

just a question. If the car doesnt have a swaybar equipped in the front, can a lower arm bar for the crossmember compensate?

plus they make rear swaybars for cars as well =)
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: javejackpot on April 11, 2009, 12:15:58 PM
Quote from: nikko_m on March 18, 2007, 02:49:52 PM
sir,
why would you want to lower your rear's lang?kung may sakay ka sa likod baka mas mataas ang front end ng car mo.better cguro kung pantay ang pag ka lower ng car.

one more thing, by just lowering the rear, you're already compromising your car's handling. its way better to have the front and rear lowered instead of just the rear
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: blur on June 06, 2009, 09:49:23 AM
hmm now i know why my car rolls to much during turns.... im missing my rear sway bar... i noticed it when i installed a rear lower tie bar.... i believe SiR's come with a sway bar right??? mine is missing
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: ozzyzero on June 30, 2009, 01:22:56 PM
yes it comes with sway bar
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: orlacx on August 06, 2009, 06:31:31 PM
is it ok to put only lower tie bar, instead of sway bar?   ???
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: blur on August 10, 2009, 01:17:27 PM
i believe sway bars mas importan than tie bars  :)
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: blue TRD on September 02, 2009, 07:31:22 PM

what is the difference in performance between 2-point and 3-point strutbars?  ???
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: 10323015 on April 09, 2010, 05:38:24 AM
Quote from: blue TRD on September 02, 2009, 07:31:22 PM
what is the difference in performance between 2-point and 3-point strutbars?  ???

if you aren't pushing it to the limit, not much.

besides, the firewall ain't that strong enough to resist the "push" coming from the 3 point strut.

2 points are good, but if you have the extra cash, 3 points wouldn't hurt.
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: sneha3047 on June 13, 2010, 05:20:30 PM
Good post it is very informative.
thanks
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: mikbik on August 16, 2012, 10:16:05 PM
what is the tolerable drop in inches for our country roads? the car is daily driver w/ koni setup
Title: Re: Suspension Tech
Post by: aylaisabelle on January 04, 2013, 01:04:23 PM
There's no tolerable drop theory. Roads in our country isn't flat at all. kahit mukang flat bouncy parin kasi wavy ung pagkaka palitada ng daan.

so pag lowered ka, ramdam mo lahat ng ka imperpekto ng mga daananan sa atin.

ung akala mo ok na di pala ahah..

Pero ganda naman tinganan ng kotse kaya ok lang heheh.. :)