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In General => Well Maintained => Oil and Lubrication => Topic started by: bitmd on February 02, 2012, 06:15:53 PM

Title: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: bitmd on February 02, 2012, 06:15:53 PM
My friend decided to try redline oil with a viscosity of 10w-30 on his 2002 altis 1.6. with 80K mileage. Upon start up there was a knocking sound that gets louder when you rev the engine. We drained the oil and went back to shell helix hx7 5w-40 and the problem went away. What's with that? Redline at 10w-30 viscosity too thin for the 3zz?
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tip_tipid on February 02, 2012, 06:25:21 PM
perhaps you can send the oil for testing and analysis if the claimed
rating is met.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Conan® on February 02, 2012, 10:18:22 PM
I highly doubt that the fault is with Redline oil not being up to spec. Redline would be my second choice of oil next to Motul 300V. Very much tried and tested with my modified Silvia.  Is the engine of the Altis free of sludge? I've seen lots of sludged-up Toyota engines that were casa-maintained ending up at Speedyfix for sludge removal.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: HyperPower™ on February 02, 2012, 11:27:38 PM
Redline 10w30 is a good oil, you could be using the wrong Viscosity.

If the engine noise on start up is evident and lasting for a few seconds, 2 possible things, incorrect oil viscosity or worn crankshaft thrust bearing.

Upper engine noise regardless of engine speed

Low oil pressure
Broken valve spring
Worn or dirty valve lifters (You might want to consider removing the carbon deposits or sludge)
Worn valve guides or valve stems
Stuck valves (Carbon/sludge on the valve stem or valve seat may cause the valve to stay open)

Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Victorb on February 03, 2012, 01:30:28 AM
Oil that is too thin can bleed down too fast in the hydraulic lash adjuster and cause ticking noises.

yes you are using the wrong viscosity or maybe the wrong oil filter?

Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: bitmd on February 03, 2012, 10:25:52 PM
I'm not doubting redline products since I use them myself. This engine is sludge free. I'm just stumbled about the knocking sound from the engine.. Perhaps 10w-30 redline is too thin for this engine.. Perhaps will try a 10w-40 or 5w-40 on his next oil change.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: niky on February 07, 2012, 09:58:03 AM
10w30 is actually thicker at start-up than 5w40. 10 and 5 are the "cold" viscosity numbers, whereas 30 and 40 are the "warm" viscosity numbers. An Altis should do fine with 10w30.

If it knocks on the thicker oil, either you didn't have enough oil in there or you got fake oil.

That it knocked at all when cold with oil in the crankcase is the worrying part. There may be something seriously wrong with the engine.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: bitmd on February 07, 2012, 08:20:23 PM
Redline that we bought is legit.. It could be that thicker oil is masking a problem on his engine  :(.. Anyways the helix semi synthetic 5w-40 is thicker compared to redline which is a group V synthetic as I compare the specs. Shell helix hx7 vis @40 deg C is 82.5 vs redline   70 cst @ 40C
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: mikbik on February 16, 2012, 07:40:30 PM
I highly doubt that the fault is with Redline oil not being up to spec. Redline would be my second choice of oil next to Motul 300V. Very much tried and tested with my modified Silvia.  Is the engine of the Altis free of sludge? I've seen lots of sludged-up Toyota engines that were casa-maintained ending up at Speedyfix for sludge removal.

sir mas ok ba yung 300V ng motul over redline oils? kahit na parehas silang ester based
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Conan® on February 17, 2012, 11:13:47 AM
sir mas ok ba yung 300V ng motul over redline oils? kahit na parehas silang ester based

My preference is 300V over Redline. Though Redline is a very good oil.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: rt140se on March 10, 2012, 02:35:46 AM
300v i believe is on double ester technology.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Victorb on March 13, 2012, 10:22:20 PM
any group III oil is alright for daily driving. just use the right viscosity for your car.

Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on March 17, 2012, 06:25:55 PM
i changed my oil two weeks ago with the same oil, same viscosity, my previous oil was motul htech 100+. after the oil change, exactly the same symptoms, knocking engine sound where there previously was none. the engine is a b16 with minor mods and no, i do not neglect my engine.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: HyperPower™ on March 18, 2012, 01:42:40 AM
Where did you buy the Htech if I may ask?
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: niky on March 19, 2012, 02:29:37 PM
Just a thought... both the Altis ZZ and the B16 have variable valve systems that use an oil control valve to mediate the cam-changeover. Why not check if there's a problem with the VTEC system that was being covered up by your old, heavier oil?
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on March 22, 2012, 07:50:08 AM
got my motul from HRC, my engine seems to run very well with it.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Brent on March 23, 2012, 09:10:23 AM
Maybe your valve tappets need to be tightened? If they're loosing they make noise.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on March 29, 2012, 07:53:18 AM
yes you're right. im gonna open up this engine and find out what is real cause of the noise. im not gonna put redline down just yet because based on reviews of other users, its a very good oil...but nxt time, im sticking with motul.
 
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on April 11, 2012, 08:53:29 AM
yes you're right. im gonna open up this engine and find out what is real cause of the noise. im not gonna put redline down just yet because based on reviews of other users, its a very good oil...but nxt time, im sticking with motul.
I finally found the cause, and yes, it is the oil. Redline 10W30 is thinner than Motul 5W30. This caused my engine to make strange noises during cold starts.
 
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: niky on April 11, 2012, 03:40:31 PM
Really doesn't make sense. 10w is supposed to be heavier than 5w at start-up.

That's like saying a straight 40 oil is thinner than a straight 30 oil.

The only way to tell if it's the oil is to put in another 10w30 and observe. If it's noisier with the 10w, then the oil is too thick at start-up. Which it shouldn't be.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Leo C. on April 11, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
I finally found the cause, and yes, it is the oil. Redline 10W30 is thinner than Motul 5W30. This caused my engine to make strange noises during cold starts.
 

10W30 is thicker than 5W30. The use of higher viscosity engine oils will contribute to lifter noise as it reduces the flow of oil through the lifter and takes longer to pump up initially. 5W30 reaches the lifters faster during start up.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on April 14, 2012, 08:50:14 AM
The mechanics at Fixstop almost dis-assembed the entire engine looking for that noise. From the distributor, to the valves, to the pulleys, belts LMA's, nothing. Everything is fine. So i went home and added a bottle of STP on the oil (thats the thick stuff that increases the viscosity of the oil) and...BAM!... engine is as smooth as ever!  Instantly! All this trouble started when i put on that 10W30 Redline oil in the first place. So i quickly went for another oil change, this time a 15W40 from Shell, and except for a slight loss in throttle response (it is a mineral oil) there is no more noise. My "limited knowledge on oil" led me to believe that 10W30 is thicker than 5W30, until that 10W30 oil almost ground my engine to death. Nothing beats experience folks, you have been warned...
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on April 14, 2012, 08:57:02 AM
Really doesn't make sense. 10w is supposed to be heavier than 5w at start-up.

That's like saying a straight 40 oil is thinner than a straight 30 oil.

The only way to tell if it's the oil is to put in another 10w30 and observe. If it's noisier with the 10w, then the oil is too thick at start-up. Which it shouldn't be.
no offense sir but i am not gonna put that damn oil back in my engine.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: berserk on April 15, 2012, 11:19:00 AM
I have the same ticking noise upon cold start up....  Maybe this noise came after ko

magpa1k PMS.. I'm using Hyundai Genuine Motor Oil (HGMO) 5w-40 fully synthetic since

naka indicate sa manual ko kapag stop and go and short driving, I need to use fully

synthetic oil.

Now even though 1 month pa lang since my last change oil, I'm considering to have

another change oil to at least lessen or eliminate the sound..

My problems are,

1) what viscosity? should I stick with the viscosity indicated in my manual

(5w-30),or thinner oil (0W-40), or even thicker oil (10W-40) Since sir tedi's engine

ticking noise went away by using thicker oil.....???

2) what brand? Mobil1 (0W-40), available ba mobil 1 (5w-30)?????

Royal purple 5W-30 or 10W-40 if ever available?   or shell helix Ultra (5W-30).....

 by the way my ride is 2012 Tucson 2.0 Gas engine...

please help. TIA  :)
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Conan® on April 15, 2012, 03:07:18 PM
I have the same ticking noise upon cold start up....  Maybe this noise came after ko

magpa1k PMS.. I'm using Hyundai Genuine Motor Oil (HGMO) 5w-40 fully synthetic since

naka indicate sa manual ko kapag stop and go and short driving, I need to use fully

synthetic oil.

Now even though 1 month pa lang since my last change oil, I'm considering to have

another change oil to at least lessen or eliminate the sound..

My problems are,

1) what viscosity? should I stick with the viscosity indicated in my manual

(5w-30),or thinner oil (0W-40), or even thicker oil (10W-40) Since sir tedi's engine

ticking noise went away by using thicker oil.....???

2) what brand? Mobil1 (0W-40), available ba mobil 1 (5w-30)?????

Royal purple 5W-30 or 10W-40 if ever available?   or shell helix Ultra (5W-30).....

 by the way my ride is 2012 Tucson 2.0 Gas engine...

please help. TIA  :)

You should stick with the viscosity stated in your manual. Fully synthetic is actually an ambiguous term. Only oils labeled as 100% synthetic means it truly is "Synthetic". Oils labeled as "Fully Synthetic" are actually mineral oils that are highly refined in order to have performance characteristics similar to synthetic oil.

Use Motul oils, it's one of the best and due to the latest promo it's very competitive in price.

Another thing 0W40 is not thinner than 5W30. 0W only represents the viscosity when cold, but once heated it's a 40 weight oil which is thicker than a 30 weight oil. Your car is also very different from the car of the thread starter so applying his conclusions to your engine would not be correct.

Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: berserk on April 15, 2012, 09:57:04 PM
You should stick with the viscosity stated in your manual. Fully synthetic is actually an ambiguous term. Only oils labeled as 100% synthetic means it truly is "Synthetic". Oils labeled as "Fully Synthetic" are actually mineral oils that are highly refined in order to have performance characteristics similar to synthetic oil.

Use Motul oils, it's one of the best and due to the latest promo it's very competitive in price.

Another thing 0W40 is not thinner than 5W30. 0W only represents the viscosity when cold, but once heated it's a 40 weight oil which is thicker than a 30 weight oil. Your car is also very different from the car of the thread starter so applying his conclusions to your engine would not be correct.

sorry sir my mistake.. I'm talking about on cold start up ( the first no. )..

- is motul h-tech 100 plus 5w-30 available here sa ph? sa Autoplus website, 10w-40

lang ang nakalagay.

-mobil 1 is 0w-40 lang ang viscosity available next is 5w-50 that is way thicker than 5w-

30 on operating condition/temp...
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Conan® on April 16, 2012, 01:26:25 PM
sorry sir my mistake.. I'm talking about on cold start up ( the first no. )..

- is motul h-tech 100 plus 5w-30 available here sa ph? sa Autoplus website, 10w-40

lang ang nakalagay.

-mobil 1 is 0w-40 lang ang viscosity available next is 5w-50 that is way thicker than 5w-

30 on operating condition/temp...

Yes the H-Tech Plus 5W30 is available at Autoplus. That's what we are using in my dad's Ford Escape V6.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: bitmd on May 03, 2012, 11:10:19 AM
Those SAE viscosity numbers are sometimes misleading. SAE usually gives a manufacturer a range for it to be classified on the viscosity rating on the bottle.
Check this site. It compares the different viscosity of oils at 40C and 100C as specified by the manufacturer and you can see that some are in thick and thin sides of their viscosity rating in the bottle
http://www.auto-rx.ph/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=61 (http://www.auto-rx.ph/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=61)

the redline 5w-30 is really thin and their 5w-40 is thicker than their 10w-40 at 100C.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Victorb on June 13, 2012, 02:54:04 PM
not all oils are created equal. viscosity wise, others are thicker / thinner but all must fall within a specific range given by API.

i believe that redline 10w-30 is thinner than the motul 5w-30. I remember an article of redline saying 'its more slippery and thinner vs a same viscosity oil -- due to esters'
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: tedi on June 13, 2012, 03:17:26 PM
not all oils are created equal. viscosity wise, others are thicker / thinner but all must fall within a specific range given by API.

i believe that redline 10w-30 is thinner than the motul 5w-30. I remember an article of redline saying 'its more slippery and thinner vs a same viscosity oil -- due to esters'
                                                                                                                          im having second thoughts now about putting thin oils on the b16. but i did achieve better economy and response from the motul 5w30, do you guys think i should switch to a thicker oil, given that it is already a 12 year old engine.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: HyperPower™ on June 13, 2012, 03:26:23 PM
it would be difficult for a thicker oil to penetrate the cracks and crevices of your engine internals. 5w30 H-Tech & H Tech plus are okay for daily driving.
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Victorb on June 13, 2012, 11:47:20 PM
just stick to what the manufacturer recommends. best would be honda 10w-30 oem oil, and its cheap! no need for those fancy brands, just change it regularly. 5,000kms or 6 months
Title: Re: knocking sound with redline oil
Post by: Conan® on July 19, 2012, 08:56:03 PM
                                                                                                                          im having second thoughts now about putting thin oils on the b16. but i did achieve better economy and response from the motul 5w30, do you guys think i should switch to a thicker oil, given that it is already a 12 year old engine.

If your engine didn't consume much oil when you used the 5W30 I'd say stick with it.