http://ststurbo.com/sts_demo

I came across this site while surfing another forum. Check out the flash demo presentation and please post your comments.

I really like the concept of the rear-mounted turbo and I think it would work.  

1.  Front-mounts are heavy, complex and run HOT
2.  STS turbo system would be better for circuit-racing as it distributes the weight more evenly in a car.   Front-mounts add 50 lbs to the front causing more understeer and requiring stiffer-front suspension to handle the weight
3.  The simpler the system, the better for reliability and mantenance.   STS is a much much simpler, yet just as effective, I believe
4.  You'd save a lot in cost, especially if you had the pipes fabricated locally.  ERL and most muffler shops could do this.   The only thing you need is that additional oil pump to circulate the oil for the turbo bearings.
5.  Your cooling and aircon system wouldn't be taxed because the radiator and aircon condenser won't have to deal with the intercooler blocking airflow and turbo heating the engine compartment.

It's a great concept, I don't know why turbo engineers didn't think of it earlier.

I'd like to try it but I already have so much invested in my front-mount kit.   Critical parts to the STS success is:
1.  correct turbo sizing and boost management
2.  oil pump
3.  engine management system

Quote from: Accord GTR on September 20, 2005, 11:30:42 PM
I really like the concept of the rear-mounted turbo and I think it would work.  

1.  Front-mounts are heavy, complex and run HOT
2.  STS turbo system would be better for circuit-racing as it distributes the weight more evenly in a car.   Front-mounts add 50 lbs to the front causing more understeer and requiring stiffer-front suspension to handle the weight
3.  The simpler the system, the better for reliability and mantenance.   STS is a much much simpler, yet just as effective, I believe
4.  You'd save a lot in cost, especially if you had the pipes fabricated locally.  ERL and most muffler shops could do this.   The only thing you need is that additional oil pump to circulate the oil for the turbo bearings.
5.  Your cooling and aircon system wouldn't be taxed because the radiator and aircon condenser won't have to deal with the intercooler blocking airflow and turbo heating the engine compartment.

It's a great concept, I don't know why turbo engineers didn't think of it earlier.

I'd like to try it but I already have so much invested in my front-mount kit.   Critical parts to the STS success is:
1.  correct turbo sizing and boost management
2.  oil pump
3.  engine management system

I also agree with you. The theory looks good and I think some of our local fabricators can do this here.

Some issues that need to be raised are the ff:

1. Bottoming out and its effects on the turbo.
2. In lieu of an intercooler, this set up uses an air filter. How do we protect it from watereintering the intake?
3. What happens to the exhaust? What happens to the muffler?


AccordGTR, you seem to be a very technical person when it comes to car modifications, maybe you can post a diagram or a short list of materials needed to replicate this set up. That's if you do pro bono consultancy...  


SPR in the US is about $4,000. We can probably duplicate this here for peanuts.

Im just wondering... What happens to turbo lag?
The turbo is sooo far away  

1.  Bottoming/muffler:  the turbo mounts where the muffler usually mounts in the rear.   The turbo itself acts as a muffler and is just as effective as a normally aspirated engine's performance exhaust sytem.  That's because a turbo breaks up the exhaust vibrations more effectively than a normal staright-through muffler can.  It won't be as quiet as a stock exhaust system though.  The turbo is smaller in size than a typical muffler so you can mount it higher up to prevent bottoming.  You can install a splash guard if you want more insurance from bottoming.

2.  The STS system has the airfilter mounted in the other side of the car on the underside too.  I think this will be a problem so I suggest you make a hole and route the air intake and mount the filter in the trunk so it doesn't suck up all the dirt and water,

3.  The beauty with this system is that you can keep the same headers/exhaust system because the turbo mounts where the muffler is.   So all you have to fabricate is the long intake track from the turbo to the throttle body.  

4.  Turbo lag.  They system claims that the length of the intake track is just the same as a front-mount turbo/intercooler system.  I tend to agree.  The front mount system has all these complex bends and joints that can cause problems because there are many places where a hose can leak.   Plus, lots of hoses and clamps are expensive.  And big bends can cause flow problems, generate more heat and lose boost pressure.

5.  No need for intercooler.  STS claims that the length of the exposed air intake track running from the turbo, under the car to the TB acts like a heat radiator to dissipate heat.   Since the air filter is not sucking heated air from the engine compartment in the first place, the need to cool boosted air is lessened.   Engine compartment with a turbo can get as hot as 100degrees!  Your trunk probably gets as hot as 30 degrees.

From the STS site, here are other benefits of Remote Mounting:  

Ease of installation. STS turbo systems can be installed in about 8 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.

Performance Sound.  The turbo acts as a muffler and sounds like an aftermarket performance muffler.  Turbo spool and rushing air from the blow-off valve make a unique sound that will turn heads!

No need for major modifications to your vehicle.  STS systems are designed to "bolt-on" to factory mounts.

Increased gas mileage.  Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe.  Most of our customers get 1-3 mpg increase in gas mileage.

Lower underhood temperatures.  No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other components.

Converts back to stock in about an hour.

More room under the hood.  Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to engine components.

Cooler oil to the turbo.  Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.

Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures.  Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.

Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.

Built-in intercooling.  Intake piping provides ~50% intercooler efficiency.  There is no need for the expense, pressure drop, and installation problems associated with a front mounted intercooler.

Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air.  Allows for better cooling of turbo components.

No need for expensive headers, mufflers, or exhaust systems.

Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet.   Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.

Better weight transfer.  Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.

Less noise in the passenger compartment.

Quote from: FlyLO on September 21, 2005, 02:10:42 AM
Im just wondering... What happens to turbo lag?
The turbo is sooo far away  

I answered your question in my last post.  i think lag is the same as a front mount system since the intake tube lengths are the same.   But as I mentioned before in my first post, turbo sizing is very important.  It is an exact science.  In any system, front or rear mount, turbo lag is caused by incorrect turbo sizing.   You must match the turbo's rating and flow characteristics to your engine and application.  You do that by reading the turbo map, figuring out your flow requirements and making sure they fit on the map.  Too small a turbo and you will generate more heat and lose power.   Too big a turbo and you get lag and strain your engine.

Quote from: Big M on September 21, 2005, 12:06:00 AM
AccordGTR, you seem to be a very technical person when it comes to car modifications, maybe you can post a diagram or a short list of materials needed to replicate this set up. That's if you do pro bono consultancy...  

Hey Big M.  I had pre-graduate engineering studies in mechanical and aerospace engineering but I'm not an engineer or mechanic by trade.  If you'd like to attempt this project, i don't mind helping out even pro-bono.  Just let me test-drive your car when we're done.  hehe  .  You can go to my friends at ERL or Fusion R and we can discuss how to go about building it

Quote from: Accord GTR on September 21, 2005, 10:29:00 AM
Hey Big M.  I had pre-graduate engineering studies in mechanical and aerospace engineering but I'm not an engineer or mechanic by trade.  If you'd like to attempt this project, i don't mind helping out even pro-bono.  Just let me test-drive your car when we're done.  hehe  .  You can go to my friends at ERL or Fusion R and we can discuss how to go about building it

As far as attempting to do the project, maybe not now. This turbo system just caught my attention because of its simplicity. The commercial on the site sold itself to me and its simplicity made me think that us Pinoys can fabricate the same system here, without the 4G price tag of course.

I have a few more questions if you don't mind.

1. Where do the exhaust gases go? If i understand it correctly, this set up removes the muffler and replaces it with a turbo which is directed to the intake. No more exhaust?  

2. If someone decides to do this set up, will wrapping the pipe from the turbo to the intake with header wraps cool the air even more? Will it give cooler boost and more HP? Is my theory correct?  

3. The site said that this set up has the potential to gove you +100hp gains on a stock engine(alam mo naman mga amerikano magaling magbenta). Is this sales pitch achievable on a stock engine? If so, bakit ngayon lang nila naisip gawin ito?  

<< 1. Where do the exhaust gases go? If i understand it correctly, this set up removes the muffler and replaces it with a turbo which is directed to the intake. No more exhaust?  >>

You're not familiar with turbos?  Turbo's have a turbine side and a compressor side.   The exhaust gasses are directed at the inlet of the turbine side of the turbo and exits the outlet.  In a front mount, the turbo inlet side is mounted on the turbo or exhaust manifold and the downpipe is bolted to the outlet of the turbine.   In the rearmount, one merely mounts the turbine inlet where the muffler bolts into the exhaust pipe, then fabricates a short exhaust tip to the turbine's outlet.

The turbine is connected to the compressor which spins faster when on boost and sucks in the intake air.  This gets pressurized and sends the air through the fabricated intake tract back to the throttle body.

<< 2. If someone decides to do this set up, will wrapping the pipe from the turbo to the intake with header wraps cool the air even more? Will it give cooler boost and more HP? Is my theory correct?  >>

No, you don't want to do that.   Boosted air becomes very hot.  More boost generates more heat.   If you wrape the intake tract, it will keep the heat in.  You want the heat to radiate out.  In the front mount, the intake tract is inside the engine compartment but in the rear-mount, the intake mount is outside, under the carm thereby taking advantage of the cooling effect without the need of an intercooler.

I would wrap the exhaust system instead because more heat kept inside the exhaust pipes will cause the turbine to spin faster and reduce turbo lag.  It's actually the heat that causes the turbine blades to spin faster.

<<  3. The site said that this set up has the potential to gove you +100hp gains on a stock engine(alam mo naman mga amerikano magaling magbenta). Is this sales pitch achievable on a stock engine? If so, bakit ngayon lang nila naisip gawin ito?  

Quote

>>

I think they are talking about the turbo system for a V-8 engine.  Typical turbo systems add between 40-70% more power on boost pressure of between 6-9 psi.  This is safe for everyday driving on stock non-turbo engines.  My Honda Accord 2.3L engine went from 125whp to 207 whp on only 9 lbs of boost.   So you should expect about the same.  But again, turbo sizing is critical and fuel management is critical for reliable power gains.

They only thought about this now because before, nobody really had an auxiliary oil pump to supply oil for the turbo if the turbo was far away from the engine.  This is the key feature that distinguishes the system from the front-mount.  In a front-mount, you tap the oil from the oil filter, which is pressurized by the engine oil pump, and route it to the turbo bearings.  In the rear-mount, the line will be too long if you do that and pressure will not be enough so you need to install that aux. oil pump which also routes the oil back to the engine.   This has a secondary function in that the long oil line, which is braided steel also acts like an oil-cooler due to its heat-radiating properties.  In the front-mount, the oil return-line from the turbo goes back to the oil pan via gravity thru a rubber line.

I think their aux oil pump is a special design with a regulated pressure valve.  I'm not sure how we can get that.   The best bet is for someone to buy the STS system, then we can copy it for other cars.

Sorry. I completely misunderstood the concept of STS. I thought that the exhaust will not be used anymore, that's why I found it kindda weird. Sorry, newbie here trying to learn.  

Yes I get your point regarding wrapping the pipes. It will restrict the pipe from reducing heat by keeping it in. Thank you for your help. Now I am learning more about turbos. More boost to you!

Quote from: Big M on September 22, 2005, 01:50:04 AM
Yes I get your point regarding wrapping the pipes. It will restrict the pipe from reducing heat by keeping it in. Thank you for your help. Now I am learning more about turbos. More boost to you!

Uh, no, wrapping the intake tract doesn't restrict it since wrapping is just on the outside.  I has nothing to do with the flow.  

People wrap their intake system so the pipes don't get hot from the engine compartment heat.  This is due to the fact that cooler intake air means denser air and denser air means more power.  You make power kasi by packing more air and fuel in each combustion stroke.  Outside air temp may be 30 degrees C but intake air in n.a. engines can go over 60 degrees while turbo engines can go a lot higher.  

They wrap their headers for a different reason, to keep heat in.  The hotter your exhaust, the faster the gases will turn the turbine.  In n.a. engines, they wrap the headers to prevent underhood temps to soar and affect the intake air temp

woah so intense the topic is..
don't know much about turbos but hoping to learn something from the experts.. hehehe

Here is something we can all learn from the turbo expers... watch the video please.....


http://videos.streetfire.net/Player.aspx?fileid=AB544E3B-5DFF-416D-9CFD-A1AD23CA9564&p=0

You know whats really so interesting about turbos?  Consider this fact.  Experts estimate that normally aspirated engines are wasting up to (I forget the exact figure) 90% of the energy of gasoline.   Where is this wasted energy going?  Out your exhaust system!   By putting a turbo in the pass of your exhaust gasses, you are actually recovering some of that wasted energy and converting it to POWER!!!

A turbo is like a dam.  Before the dam was built, you have a river.  The river may supply some fish and water to your little town.  The little town is like your normally aspirated engine.  Now put a damn in the river and suddenly you have hydroelectric-generating plant supplying energy to you little town.   What do you think will happen?  Well, if it wasn't for the Hoover Dam (i think that's its name?), the City of Las Vegas will just be a little town in the dessert.  

Honda and BMW were able to make 1500-1800 hp from a 1.5 liter engine back in the '80's because of a turbo when 1.5 liter engines then were barely making 90 hp.

Quote from: Accord GTR on September 23, 2005, 12:24:01 AM
You know whats really so interesting about turbos?  Consider this fact.  Experts estimate that normally aspirated engines are wasting up to (I forget the exact figure) 90% of the energy of gasoline.   Where is this wasted energy going?  Out your exhaust system!   By putting a turbo in the pass of your exhaust gasses, you are actually recovering some of that wasted energy and converting it to POWER!!!

A turbo is like a dam.  Before the dam was built, you have a river.  The river may supply some fish and water to your little town.  The little town is like your normally aspirated engine.  Now put a damn in the river and suddenly you have hydroelectric-generating plant supplying energy to you little town.   What do you think will happen?  Well, if it wasn't for the Hoover Dam (i think that's its name?), the City of Las Vegas will just be a little town in the dessert.  

Honda and BMW were able to make 1500-1800 hp from a 1.5 liter engine back in the '80's because of a turbo when 1.5 liter engines then were barely making 90 hp.

i believe