changing oils "will it depends on months or km reading?"

[Speedy_bagal]

So I guess the flat tappet cam failures from using API-SM oils reported on the internet are all the result of someones imagination?

So by your logic this site should be more believable since its a .ORG site:

http://www.motorists.org/blog/technology/warning-if-you-have-an-older-vehicle-choose-your-oil-carefully/

Also, looking at the PDF's that you linked to;

1) The first one has no results, it only describes the method used to determine wear. So what's the point?

2) Your second PDF link, page 105 is an ILSAC GF-3 performance standard, where the test for valve train wear is ASTM Sequence VE Test, on page 109 where you claim that less wear is tolerated for ILSAC GF-4, it's a different test altogether the ASTM Sequence IVA (ASTM D 6891). They are different tests so its pointless to compare the results including the difference of millimeters compared to microns.

Thank you very much for the link http://www.motorists.org/blog/technology/warning-if-you-have-an-older-vehicle-choose-your-oil-carefully/.

It supports exactly what I have been saying all along that API SM oil is superior to API SL. If you only took the time to scroll down to completely read the link.

Read the post of Just Me on Jan.28, 2008, he debunks your myth that API SM oils are inferior due to the lower ZDDP levels. This is known as the "Starburst Oil Myth". It is supported by the link he has given:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/northstar-performance-technical-discussion/125545-engine-oil-myths-including-zdp-gm.html

It's entitled "Engine Oil Myths Including ZDDP by GM". It was supplied by Bob Olree - GM Powertrain Fuels & Lubricants Group. (This is the OEM itself, and not some oil vendor with a hidden agenda to sell his overpriced oils w/ Group 3 base oils). Read the end of the article: The facts say otherwise. Your article also states that the 2 tests for valvetrain wear are the Sequences IVA & IIIG.

If you have trouble reading the API Certification on pages 105 & 109, of

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/pubs/upload/1509_16thedition042007.pdf,

let me help you: Summarizing the API/ASTM valvetrain wear test limits for API SM vs. SL:

                                                                   API SM                           API SL
Sequence III                                                                         
- cam plus lifter wear, average               60 microns (IIIG)              20 millimeters (IIIF) (or 20,000 microns)

Sequence IVA
- valvetrain wear average,                     90 microns                        120 millimeters (or 120,000 microns)

As for the units of measurement, millimeters are thousandths of a meter (1x10-3m), while microns are millionths of a meter (1x10-6). So that 1,000 microns are equivalent to 1 millimeter. Any engineering college dropout knows this.

Or you can use the micron-millimeter converter link: http://www.unitconversion.org/length/microns-to-millimeters-conversion.html

What's my point? The SL has a lower standard for valvetrain wear at 20,000 microns on the Seq.III, while the SM has a more stringent limit of only 60 micron. For Seq. IVA, SL allows up to 120,000 microns wear while SM allows only 90 microns.

Perhaps flat tappet cam failures are common among US hotrodders, but these may only constitute 0.001% of the Phil. motorists, namely the ultra-rich, high revving, streetrodders.   

[Conan®]

Ok now I see the API PDF better now that I shrank the page size of my Adobe Reader. I guess you're right here in the wear measurements allowed.
                                         
The article you're referring to in the link that I provided, I read the whole article. In summary all it said was that today's API-SM has the same amount of ZDP as the oil in the 1950's.

[Speedy_bagal]

Ok now I see the API PDF better now that I shrank the page size of my Adobe Reader. I guess you're right here in the wear measurements allowed.
                                         
The article you're referring to in the link that I provided, I read the whole article. In summary all it said was that today's API-SM has the same amount of ZDP as the oil in the 1950's.

Today's API SM oils might have the same ZDP (zinc dithiophosphate) levels as gasoline engine oils in the 1950s (at .08% max), but this does not prevent oil blenders from using other types of antiwear/antioxidant materials to achieve even better engine wear protection.

A more effective type of zinc/phosphorous antiwear agent is the ZDDP (for zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate). For a lower ZDDP dose compared to only ZDP, you can arrive at the same Sequence IIIG & IVA valvetrain wear test results to pass as an API SM oil. In short, you get more bang for the buck with ZDDP vs. ZDP, despite the reduced zinc levels.

Other anti-wear options for blenders are:  zinc-free or even ash-less types of chemical agents. I've seen a General Motors' Electro Motive Division (EMD) engine with silver alloy bearings use a zinc-free engine oil in an offshore oil drill rig. Instead of using diesel fuel, the engine burned crude oil a.k.a petroleum, straight from the oil well. Despite the dirty, high-sulfur petroleum fuel, the zinc-free oil performed alright - no camshaft/piston ring/liner/bearing wear outside of what was normal.

Zinc is not the only option for anti-wear engine protection. It's simply the cheapest in the market, mixed along with phosphorous. Pero, excessively high phosphorous levels can also be corrosive to the engine. Hindi ito pataasan ng zinc but passing API/ASTM established engine bench tests. This test system is run by the EOLCS (Engine Oil License & Certification System).

There are also several different types of antiwear agents for engine oils. Some anti-wear agents are activated at low-temperatures, some at high temp, some at low engine speeds & mostly at high engine speeds.  Thus, an oil blend in a carr engine may exhibit low wear at high-revs but at stop-and-go driving, camshaft wear increases. Baka kulang sa low-speed anti-wear ang formulation.

It's up to the oil maker to achieve the lowest cost blend with the max benefits. Meron naman, kung marginal ang oil blend, binabawi na lang nila sa marketing, distribution at advertising.

Antiwear agents can also have an anti-oxidant benefit to the engine oil. Oxidation is the process where the oil thickens due to combustion heat & in contact with oxygen from the inlet air. In simple terms, the anti-oxidant additive slows down the oil's thickening & deterioration.

The superior antiwear/anti-oxidant capability of API SM is further demonstrated in the high temp deposit test limit or Thermo-Oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST). The TEOST test limit for API SM is more stringent at 35 mg while for API SL it is more loose at 45 mg. This shows that API SM oils have a greater anti-oxidant (and anti-wear) capability. 

How do i know all these? Let's just say that i've eyeballed with those engine Sequence III, IV & V tests...

I've enjoyed this exchange & sharing some info. 'Hope all you readers were also able to follow the techie discussions and can feel secure that an API SM engine oil is better than an SL engine oil. And that an SM oil can be used in your dad's 1980 Lancer Box type w/o fear of engine damage. (Agree, Brent?).

Just one word of caution to all. It's easy to make statements over the 'Net. But if your statements are not backed by hard facts, research data, OEM findings, etc., and rely upon 3rd party hearsay, myths from your network, suppliers' with hidden agendas, unsubstantiated or opinionated blogs, it diminishes the value of this website.

Now, we don't want THAT to happen, right Conan?   

[aid03]

i agree to what you are saying and i guess you are right. I respect conan and other board members and believe them before you but with the facts straightened out you don't have to be mentioning peoples names like they don't know anything. Its an informative forum and I hate people bashing others coz they spent hours or days reading an article to prove others wrong. just my .02

[mitsu4ever]

i agree to what you are saying and i guess you are right. I respect conan and other board members and believe them before you but with the facts straightened out you don't have to be mentioning peoples names like they don't know anything. Its an informative forum and I hate people bashing others coz they spent hours or days reading an article to prove others wrong. just my .02

disagree po ako sa inyo...hindi po yan bashing. eto po ang bashing:
masyado ka namang balat sibuyas mr aid03. sa mga palitan ng emails nila, nakita ko na si mr speedy bagal ay mas objective ang mga sources. si mr conan ay guni-guni o 'myth' pala ang pinagtatanggol. ayun at nabuking tuloy na di pala nya binabasa ang depensa niyang dot org na website. si mr brent ay nanakot na baka masira ang makina ko kung gagamit ng bagong sm oil. wag nyo po akong takutin at matagal na po akong takot.

kung kayo po ay magmamarunong sa internet, pakisigurado lang po na alam nyo ang sinasabi nyo. kasi po ay wala akong masyadong alam sa langis at umaasa lang dito. pero di ko rin naman kilala ang mga board members nyo kung may k sila. matagal na po akong visitor dito pero ngayon lang ako sumulat. sawang-sawa na po ako sa mga rekomendasyon ninyo na puro mga mamahaling syntetic na langis tulad ng mobil, motul atbpa. di ko sila magamit sa bulok kong '93 glxi at baka di na ko makabili ng gaso. di naman po ako mayaman tulad ng ilan sa inyo.

mr speed bagal, ano po ang pwede kong gamitin sa aking lumang lancer glxi na hindi butas ang bulsa ko ? saan ako pwedeng mag-aral ng mga oils ? ayoko na pong umasa sa mga guniguni at nagmamarunong lang. kung may nasaktan po, bato-bato sa langit...

[joseph0119]

easy lang mga bro...

Ai has never projected itself as a forum for experts... AFAIK, its a forum where car enthusiasts can share their ideas (expert or otherwise)... What im trying to get at is that although not all recommendations found in the forum may be "expxert" or "correct" in nature, i believe that people who share their opinions here in Ai have good intentions... that is to help fellow enthusiasts with their car troubles and not para "magmarunong"... kung may nagkakamali man dito, pasensya na po, tao lang... there is absolutely no need to say that people here pretend to be experts or are "nagmamarunong"... kung gusto mo experts, marami sa Rapide!

based on my experience, the stuff i've learned from other members of AI have been reliable... helpful, to say the least...

peace my brothers! :thumbsup:

[aid03]

haha funny... wala naman talaga expert dito. I didnt say he's wrong and conan agreed his right. if not bashing why being sarcastic? You dont gotta mention names when everybody agreed youre right? speedy wasn't even sure exactly that the thing he was saying was correct. Speedy was just defending himself so not to be embarrassed and im pretty sure he just heard it somewhere also. Coz, if he was that sure speedy wouldve found the link not conan. everything that speedy posted were speculations and saying .org sites are more reliable is totally BS. But i give him props for reading more and actually finding the right answer.  :thumbsup:

@mitsu... people here recommend oils based on experience. if you search more threads not everyones recommendation is expensive. you don't have to use what everybodys using. you have your own choice and nobodys telling you that you have to thats why its called "recommendation". im not rich and i dont use motul or royal purple, etc. i only use mobil w/c i buy in bulk coz its a lot cheaper but its not as good of a protection as motul, etc... but i wouldnt use a regular oil even though its cheaper coz a group III synthetic will last longer. Im sorry if you feel pressured to buy all these expensive oils but nobody would recommend anything thatll harm your car. Like I said youre not obligated.

This is a forum for generally car enthusiasts. We share the same passion for cars and try to help everybody who needs it. But, not everything is right coz were not experts. But i assure you there is always someone who would be able to point you out to the right direction. I don't recommend anything that I know nothing about. So, if you wanna get more expert advice go to bitog and all they talk about there is oil.

[joseph0119]

@aid03

PM sent pare!

[Conan®]

disagree po ako sa inyo...hindi po yan bashing. eto po ang bashing:
masyado ka namang balat sibuyas mr aid03. sa mga palitan ng emails nila, nakita ko na si mr speedy bagal ay mas objective ang mga sources. si mr conan ay guni-guni o 'myth' pala ang pinagtatanggol. ayun at nabuking tuloy na di pala nya binabasa ang depensa niyang dot org na website. si mr brent ay nanakot na baka masira ang makina ko kung gagamit ng bagong sm oil. wag nyo po akong takutin at matagal na po akong takot.

kung kayo po ay magmamarunong sa internet, pakisigurado lang po na alam nyo ang sinasabi nyo. kasi po ay wala akong masyadong alam sa langis at umaasa lang dito. pero di ko rin naman kilala ang mga board members nyo kung may k sila. matagal na po akong visitor dito pero ngayon lang ako sumulat. sawang-sawa na po ako sa mga rekomendasyon ninyo na puro mga mamahaling syntetic na langis tulad ng mobil, motul atbpa. di ko sila magamit sa bulok kong '93 glxi at baka di na ko makabili ng gaso. di naman po ako mayaman tulad ng ilan sa inyo.

mr speed bagal, ano po ang pwede kong gamitin sa aking lumang lancer glxi na hindi butas ang bulsa ko ? saan ako pwedeng mag-aral ng mga oils ? ayoko na pong umasa sa mga guniguni at nagmamarunong lang. kung may nasaktan po, bato-bato sa langit...

Actually I found this thread to be an intelligent exchange of ideas until you came along. If you think disrespecting the forum owner and staff will get you answers here then you better think twice. Oh and most of what I know about the automotive industry is from actual experience not from reading specification sheets of products.

I guess you also don't know how to read as Brent never stated that using API-SM oils will result in engine damage. It's because Speedybagal said that using SM oils can extend oil change intervals and Brent said to stick with manufacturer recommended intervals.

If you don't like what Brent and I recommend here then feel free to click the large X on the upper right hand of your internet browser.

[Brent]

I've enjoyed this exchange & sharing some info. 'Hope all you readers were also able to follow the techie discussions and can feel secure that an API SM engine oil is better than an SL engine oil. And that an SM oil can be used in your dad's 1980 Lancer Box type w/o fear of engine damage. (Agree, Brent?).

No I don't agree. Because I never said API SM oil will damage the engine of the 1980 Lancer Box type or any old car for that matter. I said the old engine might not be able to take advantage of the new oil technology. I said extending the drain interval MIGHT cause damage to it. I never said anything about not using API SM oils either. I actually advised people to read the labels carefully before they to do extended drains with their API SM oils, because there are already some API SM compliant mineral oils and they obviously cannot do extended drains. Next time read carefully before you try to make a sarcastic hint. 

Thank you for the enlightenment about SM oils nonetheless, it was very informative. 

disagree po ako sa inyo...hindi po yan bashing. eto po ang bashing:
masyado ka namang balat sibuyas mr aid03. sa mga palitan ng emails nila, nakita ko na si mr speedy bagal ay mas objective ang mga sources. si mr conan ay guni-guni o 'myth' pala ang pinagtatanggol. ayun at nabuking tuloy na di pala nya binabasa ang depensa niyang dot org na website. si mr brent ay nanakot na baka masira ang makina ko kung gagamit ng bagong sm oil. wag nyo po akong takutin at matagal na po akong takot.

kung kayo po ay magmamarunong sa internet, pakisigurado lang po na alam nyo ang sinasabi nyo. kasi po ay wala akong masyadong alam sa langis at umaasa lang dito. pero di ko rin naman kilala ang mga board members nyo kung may k sila. matagal na po akong visitor dito pero ngayon lang ako sumulat. sawang-sawa na po ako sa mga rekomendasyon ninyo na puro mga mamahaling syntetic na langis tulad ng mobil, motul atbpa. di ko sila magamit sa bulok kong '93 glxi at baka di na ko makabili ng gaso. di naman po ako mayaman tulad ng ilan sa inyo.

mr speed bagal, ano po ang pwede kong gamitin sa aking lumang lancer glxi na hindi butas ang bulsa ko ? saan ako pwedeng mag-aral ng mga oils ? ayoko na pong umasa sa mga guniguni at nagmamarunong lang. kung may nasaktan po, bato-bato sa langit...

This is by far the stupidest post I've ever seen on this thread. We have all become dumber by just reading your post. Thank you for wasting our time. You have proven yourself to be a complete idiot.

Next time read properly before you butt in. This is an intellectual exchange of ideas by posting of messages in a forum and NOT EMAIL. 

[Manga]

So enlighten me here, Mr. Speedy Bagal, if this API SM is so superior, then why do oil manufacturers put out a 'HIGH MILEAGE' category, API SM oil together will the regular API SM?

disagree po ako sa inyo...hindi po yan bashing. eto po ang bashing:
masyado ka namang balat sibuyas mr aid03. sa mga palitan ng emails nila, nakita ko na si mr speedy bagal ay mas objective ang mga sources. si mr conan ay guni-guni o 'myth' pala ang pinagtatanggol. ayun at nabuking tuloy na di pala nya binabasa ang depensa niyang dot org na website. si mr brent ay nanakot na baka masira ang makina ko kung gagamit ng bagong sm oil. wag nyo po akong takutin at matagal na po akong takot.

kung kayo po ay magmamarunong sa internet, pakisigurado lang po na alam nyo ang sinasabi nyo. kasi po ay wala akong masyadong alam sa langis at umaasa lang dito. pero di ko rin naman kilala ang mga board members nyo kung may k sila. matagal na po akong visitor dito pero ngayon lang ako sumulat. sawang-sawa na po ako sa mga rekomendasyon ninyo na puro mga mamahaling syntetic na langis tulad ng mobil, motul atbpa. di ko sila magamit sa bulok kong '93 glxi at baka di na ko makabili ng gaso. di naman po ako mayaman tulad ng ilan sa inyo.

mr speed bagal, ano po ang pwede kong gamitin sa aking lumang lancer glxi na hindi butas ang bulsa ko ? saan ako pwedeng mag-aral ng mga oils ? ayoko na pong umasa sa mga guniguni at nagmamarunong lang. kung may nasaktan po, bato-bato sa langit...

hahaha. :happy1: :jokercolor:

[speedyfix]

If you don't like what Brent and I recommend here then feel free to click the large X on the upper right hand of your internet browser.

hehehe! good one!

[incoming!!]

beep beep!
    respeto lang mga pare koy sa thread starter sobrang OT na!! joke   :jokercolor:   

that guy did his homework copy, paste, edit and add tagalog words to make it more like he is the GURU!  :notworthy:

AI is the champ so don't be such a CHUMP!

[montoya]

Ako din, matagal na nagbabasa dito, pero ngayon lang ako nagsulat.  "Changing oils" is simple... being made complicated.  Back to the original subject, if you have an ordinary car for daily driving, just change your oil every 5,000 kms.  Now, others encourage you to change it every 3 months only for marketing purposes.  Mas malaki ang kita ng oil companies and casa if you change your oil often.  It's simple as that.  Oil is not milk na mapapanis.  You can use 20W 50 from the gas station nearest you.

But if your car is for racing and turbocharged, that is the time you use synthetic.

I also don't recommend flushing.  Yung iba gumagamit pa ng "cheaper oil" for flushing.  Sa mga gumagawa nun, why not just change your oil every 2,000 kms para parating malinis langis, at mabawasan ang ceremoniyas.

And last, don't use oil additives.  Just save your extra money for gas.

[speedyfix]

You can use 20W 50 from the gas station nearest you.

this is a misleading statement. lalo na if you have a new car. 20w50 is not even in the viscosity index of most new cars that require 30 weight (some even a 20 weight like the new v6's from mitsu).

by using the thick oil you are going to end up wasting gas lang.

oil is a simple topic, pero don't over simplify it.